This really takes the fun out of the wonderful hobby that we all
know and love to do. I will not mention any names but you know who
you are. And you sure are a group that makes it hard to enjoy
boxing. One from the group whom I thought prided oneself on
following the rules of the hunt and the game. One whom preaches the
criteria on the board quite frequently. I have been on the
letterboxing website lately to find some new boxes in my area to
hunt and low and behold was a new post today, maybe posted late
yesterday. The new box stated that it was placed on 7/1. A good
friend of the placer found it on 7/3. The post was put out on 7/5
or 7/6. Is this the fair way to be? How many Firsties can a person
want, or have, to get them this way? Everyone wants to be first now
and then. You might as well have just handed the person the firstie
prize. Shame on you both. I do not get it. What do you all
think? Is this the way to Letterbox? It is just so sad. Willow.

Answered off-board, direct email to Willow.

Sir B

I personally do not think it's fair... but that's just my opinion. The ONLY time I do think it is fair is when the box is in honor or memory of another letterboxer or family member of another boxer. For example: Butterfly et al put out a birthday box in my honor last year. They gave me the clues first, so I could be the first one to stamp in, since it was a birthday box in my honor. I think that is OK. Sometimes, clues are originally not online and are meant to be shared, and then the placer decides to put them online. Sometimes things change. As for the situation you are referring.... I don't think it's fair.

MW

Willow,

I obviously have no knowledge of the specific situation but did want to
share some thoughts.

I recently placed my first boxes. You will not find the clues on the LbNA
site--yet--because I want someone to double check on them, make sure they
make sense, are accurate, error free, etc. before sharing them with the
world. I am floating a test balloon, so to speak. And when I do post
them, the clues will say "Placed July 3" and the first finders--who will
be friends of mine-- will have stamped in before the clues are even posted
on the LbNA list. (I did not include a "firstie" prize. most of the boxes
around here do not.)

For me, this is a better option than finding I made some significant error
in clue or placement. Perhaps the case you encountered is similar. I have
fond I enjoy the hobby a lot more when I focus on how I box, instead of
how somebody else does.

I like to be the first finder--especially if there is a bonus of some sort!
I like to beat some veteran boxers to new boxes as well, and I especially
like to find a challenging or mystery box that has stymied others. I like
to see my PFX count increase (tho I have no idea what it currently is) and I
like to progress towards my personal goals.

Most importantly, I like to get outside and push myself physically and
mentally. I love to find the box as it is a tangible proof that I met a
challenge, yet this is not nearly as important as it was when I first
started less than a year ago.


Mama Stork
aka Pam in Cinci



I have been on the
> letterboxing website lately to find some new boxes in my area to
> hunt and low and behold was a new post today, maybe posted late
> yesterday. The new box stated that it was placed on 7/1. A good
> friend of the placer found it on 7/3. The post was put out on 7/5
> or 7/6. Is this the fair way to be? How many Firsties can a person
> want, or have, to get them this way? Everyone wants to be first now
> and then. You might as well have just handed the person the firstie
> prize. Shame on you both. I do not get it. What do you all
> think? Is this the way to Letterbox? It is just so sad. Willow.
>
>
>>

Am I understanding that you think this is not fair because other
people did not have a chance to be the first finder of the box? Are
you serious?

Letterboxing is about getting outside and enjoying the trails and
figuring clues to hunt down letterboxes. The prize is the enjoyment
you get from the activity -- mental challenge, physical workout,
time spent with family and friends, visiting a scenic or historic
place, an artistically crafted stamp and/or logbook... Finding a
box at the end of the trail is nice, and I could understand a person
getting frustrated if they repeatedly came upon boxes that were
missing, but being a first finder -- hardly rates in the scope of
things.

Letterboxing is a wonderful way to spend a few hours, a day or an
entire weekend, even if you are not first-finder at any of the boxes
you seek. Truth be told, I would prefer NOT being the first finder -
- I like to see the stamps and read comments of other boxers who
have been there before me.

Besides, who is to say what is fair and what is not fair? To some,
word-of-mouth clues seem unfair, to others, store-bought stamps seem
an unfair reward for seeking a box, and for still others, it may
seem unfair to place a box at the end of a 10-mile hike up a large,
steep mountain, or on an island with no road or ferry access...

Just find another box.

SpringChick


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Cherie Mortazavi"
wrote:
>
> This really takes the fun out of the wonderful hobby that we all
> know and love to do. I will not mention any names but you know who
> you are. And you sure are a group that makes it hard to enjoy
> boxing. One from the group whom I thought prided oneself on
> following the rules of the hunt and the game. One whom preaches the
> criteria on the board quite frequently. I have been on the
> letterboxing website lately to find some new boxes in my area to
> hunt and low and behold was a new post today, maybe posted late
> yesterday. The new box stated that it was placed on 7/1. A good
> friend of the placer found it on 7/3. The post was put out on 7/5
> or 7/6. Is this the fair way to be? How many Firsties can a person
> want, or have, to get them this way? Everyone wants to be first now
> and then. You might as well have just handed the person the firstie
> prize. Shame on you both. I do not get it. What do you all
> think? Is this the way to Letterbox? It is just so sad. Willow.

You're upset about not having a chance to be the first finder of a
letterbox? I had no idea this would upset someone so much, nor that
anyone would be so hung up about who was first. Very interesting
indeed!

I'm sorry you feel this way, but please keep in mind that *most*
people do not plant letterboxes with the intention of turning it into
a competition for who finds the letterbox first. I for one PREFER to
be the last of a long line of finders to see what other people have
stamped and written before me.

The person who planted the box in question probably didn't plant it
with the intention of it being turned into a contest. Why can't
looking for a letterbox be enjoyable in itself? Is the second person
to find a letterbox somehow inferior to the first? Is the third
person to find a box somehow inferior to the second?

Unless the person publicly announced that there are no first-finders
when they posted the clue (a blatent lie), what would make you assume
the clue hasn't already been distributed through other means?

Heck, maybe the first founder even found the box by accident. I've
found letterboxes without publicly posted clues while searching for
some other nearby letterbox.

I'm sorry you feel so upset about this, but I'll admit--I do have a
difficult time understanding why it would be so upsetting. I
visualize a race where everyone is meandering along taking their time
and having a good time, except for one person running on out ahead
to 'scoop' the rest of the people (who didn't really care in the
first place), then being upset that they were scooped themselves.

Does it really matter to people that much if they're the first finder
or not?

-- Ryan

I wouldn't let it bug you. I don't understand the emphasis on first
finder at all except in the instance of mystery boxes. Sure in a
mystery box there is some mental work to be done to find it and even
that ranges from ridiculously simple to ridiculously difficult. If I
find a mystery box and someone has stamped in before it was posted to
the list then clearly there was inside info and I'd still consider
myself the first finder. With ordinary boxes I say, "who cares". We
all have lives other than boxing and there are myriad reasons why one
cannot just dash out for a new box. I find the whole first finder
thing a ridiculous pretense in the case of most boxes and even so in
many mystery boxes. Even though you may solve a mystery clue you may
not be able to get to the box due to the demands of daily life or just
due to distance. Unless you can prove to me that you were the first to
solve a mystery clue then you have precious little to brag about with
your FF. If it's not a mystery box then I could care less if I'm the
FF or if you are. I don't even know what my current F count is let
alone my FF count. I just go get boxes when I want a distraction and
have some free time. I never had the slightest notion to include a
first finder prize in one of my boxes until it was mentioned here
recently nor did I know that I should have been counting these
separately. To be honest I'm rarely impressed by someone's F and
P-ness. Don't let them fill your head with silly competitive notions,
No one counts the same way and what does it all really mean anyway?
It's kind of like PLB's I don't get those either, so you put your name
on a list, big deal. I don't bother with virtual boxes either, I'd
rather go outside to do my looking so what's all the competition about
if half the people are only playing half the game? I get competitive
with a few local friends over a few things that interest us but in the
big game I don't much care what your count etc. is, never stopped me
from going out and getting a box and I don't think I'll get into
heaven any quicker because I'm an F500. It's all just playing.

\RiskyNil@pocketmail.com writes:


> Does it really matter to people that much if they're the first finder
> or not?
>

The G-c'chers in my area make a big deal out of being First To Find. To the
point of going out in the wee hours of the morning when an new c'che is
posted.

I was first to find a couple of boxes in my area--not too difficult, since
there aren't a ton of boxers here, and I was emailing with the placer, so I knew
when the clues went up. I'll admit to a kind of pleasure at being first,
but truthfully, I don't care if I'm ever first at another box again. As others
have said, it's cooler to be able to review other people's comments and
stamps.

But we all want something slightly different out of the hobby. Some don't
even care if the box is there at the end of the hike. I'm not that evolved.
If I go looking for a box, I MUCH prefer to find it!

So to each his own, but you have to realize, what's important to you may not
be to the next guy. It's possible the planter of the box in question never
even thought being first finder would be that crucial.

DebBee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't usually wade in on stuff like this, but..... I have done just this
with a box I have planted. The box was in honor of some friends and I wanted
them to find the box first. This was my box, my choice. The main reason I planted
this box, however, is for others to enjoy the trail that I found personally
pleasing. I enjoy first finders as well, but I don't look for new postings to
try and get there first. I think the sad thing here is that the box in
question seems to have less of a prize beacause you were not the first finder. Safe
trails.
Koyote


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To Ryan and SpringChick and others who aren't sure why being the First Finders really matters:

Well, I mostly agree with you. But I think I've seen a trend whereby folks, in talking about the neat stuff others leave as First Finder Prizes, may well have generated the thoughts that it's part of the challenge. Heck, I can certainly think of folks who seem to do whatever it takes to be the first finder.
Diane and I haven't gotten any First Finder goodies, and we've only found one box first. It would be neat. There may be regions where they leave all sorts of fun prizes for First Finders - I dunno. And Willow may just have a lot of frustration after trying very hard.
But actually, the letterboxing hobby is its own, fun, frustrating, lovely, challenging reward. Don't let them get your spirit down, Willow! As they say: "Get out there and box!"

Dave
The von der Insels
P10 F222 X120 H8 E2


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Willow,

I don't know very much about what other letterboxers do. I've
only found six and spend most of my time carving and planting them
instead. There aren't a lot of boxes in my area.

I certainly have never felt an obligation to post clues to the
web first. This has mostly been because the only people in my area
to hunt them were co-workers or friends that were new to
letterboxing. I was trying to "win them over". They were all into
it for "first to find" compitions. None of them had stamps. They
would just sign in with a pencil I included. That's the sacrifice
that needed to be made in an area with no letterboxers. Out of all
of them, only one person ever took the time to carve a stamp. One of
them still hunts my boxes and signs in with pencil.

However, I am not working now to be home with my kids and the
only place to post a clue is on the web. Still, I could see times
when I may not do that first.

As for "first to find" prizes, I put one in my boxes (or with my
boxes) about half of the time. However, I have taken to not
mentioning when this is done or when a HH has been turned loose. I
intentionally avoid it because it is better as a surprise.

I can understand your frustration if you felt like the "inside
line" was there to "cheat everyone else". I can understand that you
may be more upset with someone's intentions than actually "not being
first". But, it is really hard to say why things were done a certain
way without talking to the planter.

Thanks for bringing up this topic. I think it has shed a lot of
light on what planters intend for their boxes and the hunters. Hope
the comments have helped. :)

-Quiet Place

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I must say that, for me, it's not at all
about being a "first finder". (It is not the norm for a box to have a "firstie"
prize hidden in it anyway.) To me it's no big deal at all whether I am the
first to stamp in or the 101st.

Also, bear in mind that it isn't necessarily that someone is giving their
friends first dibs unfairly. I, for one, try to have someone "beta test" my clues
before I publicize them to the list. So for my boxes, there is ALWAYS someone
stamped into the box before I publicize them. In my opinion, it's more
important to have the box be findable and the clues understandable than to indulge
first finders.

Just my 2 cents.
Respectfully,
-Kim (Rustypuff)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---"Lady Hydrangea Prisspott nee Hedge" wrote:
> We all have lives other than boxing
> and there are myriad reasons why one
> cannot just dash out for a new box.

We do? There is? Well, dang.

>and what does it all really mean anyway?

Ah, an age-old philisophical question. It's not surprising that it
comes from someone who spends so much time in the woods at peace
(presumably) with nature.

;)
-Red

Hi All!

I am new to this, having found my first box Monday June 5th. A friend and I are going on hunts and making our stamp together. The box we found was a bit challenging and when we found it, there was a little piece of paper saying we were the first. I must admit that being first seemed to make it a little sweeter, but we had no idea we would be. I have thought about it after reading these messages, and I don't have any need to be first, I'm just excited to find that there are some in my area (San Diego County CA). This is a relatively new sport and maybe it will evolve into a first finders game, maybe not. Anyway I am thrilled to be able to join you all. If anyone knows of any clues to boxes in Way Southern CA. let me know! (There are not too many on the Letterboxing web site).
Peace,
Michelle
PS the box we found was the 'Pacific Coast Trail' box of off Buckman Springs Road

red_bing wrote:
---"Lady Hydrangea Prisspott nee Hedge" wrote:
> We all have lives other than boxing
> and there are myriad reasons why one
> cannot just dash out for a new box.

We do? There is? Well, dang.

>and what does it all really mean anyway?

Ah, an age-old philisophical question. It's not surprising that it
comes from someone who spends so much time in the woods at peace
(presumably) with nature.

;)
-Red


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Make that July 5th!!!

effie hale wrote:
Hi All!

I am new to this, having found my first box Monday June 5th. A friend and I are going on hunts and making our stamp together. The box we found was a bit challenging and when we found it, there was a little piece of paper saying we were the first. I must admit that being first seemed to make it a little sweeter, but we had no idea we would be. I have thought about it after reading these messages, and I don't have any need to be first, I'm just excited to find that there are some in my area (San Diego County CA). This is a relatively new sport and maybe it will evolve into a first finders game, maybe not. Anyway I am thrilled to be able to join you all. If anyone knows of any clues to boxes in Way Southern CA. let me know! (There are not too many on the Letterboxing web site).
Peace,
Michelle
PS the box we found was the 'Pacific Coast Trail' box of off Buckman Springs Road

red_bing wrote:
---"Lady Hydrangea Prisspott nee Hedge" wrote:
> We all have lives other than boxing
> and there are myriad reasons why one
> cannot just dash out for a new box.

We do? There is? Well, dang.

>and what does it all really mean anyway?

Ah, an age-old philisophical question. It's not surprising that it
comes from someone who spends so much time in the woods at peace
(presumably) with nature.

;)
-Red


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gosh, all you people who love to be first, could you come to Utah and
find some of our boxes.
Traffic tends to be slow over here and I am so excited when I find a
box that has lots of stamps for me to read. I love reading about the
people who have gone before me, in fact I wish people would always
remember to write where they came from cause I get such a kick out of it.
But for all you who love to be first, I have taken to putting out a
little scroll tied with a shrinky dink token that has a miniature copy
of the letterbox stamp.
Come to Utah and be first!
Nisha

Were at in Utah? We might be moving to Cedar City in a year or so.

Laura

----- Original Message -----
From: nishakamada
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 2:30 PM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: It's so sad, a letterboxers frustration!


Gosh, all you people who love to be first, could you come to Utah and
find some of our boxes.
Traffic tends to be slow over here and I am so excited when I find a
box that has lots of stamps for me to read. I love reading about the
people who have gone before me, in fact I wish people would always
remember to write where they came from cause I get such a kick out of it.
But for all you who love to be first, I have taken to putting out a
little scroll tied with a shrinky dink token that has a miniature copy
of the letterbox stamp.
Come to Utah and be first!
Nisha


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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We're of the opinion that we'd rather be 50th to a difficult and
historical box.....then 1st to a brand new box.

-Steve, Heidi, and Madras

(Sitting here embracing our collection of dilemma's while listening
to Paul play his music for the dancing men).

In a message dated 7/8/2004 4:34:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
stephenholyfield@sbcglobal.net writes:
We're of the opinion that we'd rather be 50th to a difficult and
historical box.....then 1st to a brand new box.

-Steve, Heidi, and Madras

(Sitting here embracing our collection of dilemma's while listening
to Paul play his music for the dancing men).
Here Here!!!!! I'll second that!

Music Woman
(who's already embraced dilemmas and danced with dancing men, but wants to
find some escaped zoo animals)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You better start saving up your frequent flyer miles then :-))))

Judi (who actually planted a letterbox for the first time in months, but
hasn't got round to writing clues yet).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mindizney@aol.com [mailto:mindizney@aol.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 10:18 PM
> To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [LbNA] Re: It's so sad, a letterboxers frustration!
>
>
> In a message dated 7/8/2004 4:34:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> stephenholyfield@sbcglobal.net writes:
> We're of the opinion that we'd rather be 50th to a difficult and
> historical box.....then 1st to a brand new box.
>
> -Steve, Heidi, and Madras
>
> (Sitting here embracing our collection of dilemma's while listening
> to Paul play his music for the dancing men).
> Here Here!!!!! I'll second that!
>
> Music Woman
> (who's already embraced dilemmas and danced with dancing men,
> but wants to
> find some escaped zoo animals)
>
>

That is a REALLY cool idea! I have never found a first finders certificate,
so had no ideas for any. But this line has provided me with ample ideas!
Thanks so much!
Kerri
Lone Pony of the Unlucky Letterboxers



Gosh, all you people who love to be first, could you come to Utah and
find some of our boxes.
Traffic tends to be slow over here and I am so excited when I find a
box that has lots of stamps for me to read. I love reading about the
people who have gone before me, in fact I wish people would always
remember to write where they came from cause I get such a kick out of it.
But for all you who love to be first, I have taken to putting out a
little scroll tied with a shrinky dink token that has a miniature copy
of the letterbox stamp.
Come to Utah and be first!
Nisha



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If I may, I'd like to chime in as well. I recently posed a question
related to a couple of boxes I placed to the LBMA list. A total of
two people were able to answer the riddle, so I provided them with
clues about 1 week prior to posting on the list. These kind folks
were rewarded because they took the time to engage and answer the
question. The rest of the LB world found out once after 1 week. To
my respondent's credit, they were finders 1 and 2. Good for them!

Do I feel guilty or evil? NO! I was rewarding somebody whom I have
never met before or ever engaged in cyberspace before for answering a
riddle. Would I do it again? Yes.

Lightnin' Bug
Allentown, PA